GOD or Reality is Uncreated (This is exactly the REVELATION of our Guru Nanak in Japu Pauri 5: thapia na jae kita na hoe; ape aap niranjan soe)
The situation is far more radical than most practicing scientists suppose. Whatever is the fundamental source of creation, it itself must be uncreated. Otherwise, there is a hidden creator lying in the background, and then we must ask who or what created that.
What does it mean to be uncreated? The source of reality must be self-sufficient, capable of engendering complex systems on the micro and macro scale, self-regulating, and holistic. Nothing can exist outside its influence. Ultimately, the uncreated source must also turn into the physical universe, not simply oversee it as God or the gods do in conventional religion. We feel that only consciousness fits the bill, for as a prima facie truth, no experience takes place outside consciousness, which means that if there is a reality existing beyond our awareness (counting mathematics and the laws of physics as 1 part of our conscious experience), we will never be able to know it. The fact that consciousness is inseparable from cognition, perception, observation, and measurement is undeniable; therefore, this is the starting point for new insights into the nature of reality.
CONSCIOUSNESS is the Creator of Physical Universe
Consciousness includes human mental processes, but it is not just a human attribute. Existing outside space and time, it was "there" "before" those two words had any meaning. In essence, space and time are conceptual artifacts that sprang from primordial consciousness. The reason that the human mind meshes with nature, mathematics, and the fundamental forces described by physics, is no accident: we mesh because we are a product of the same conceptual expansion by which primordial consciousness turned into the physical world. We cannot extract consciousness from the physical universe, despite the fervent hope of materialists and reductionists. Our approach, positing consciousness as more fundamental than anything physical, is the most reasonable alternative.
--- In learning-zone@yahoogroups.com, HARDEV SINGH VIRK <hardevsingh.virk@...> wrote:
Dr Virk is world famous scientist in Physics. Similarly there are other famous scientists on the GLZ forum. 'Origin of Universe' is the subject of discussion from the time immemorial and has been discussed by the prophets, Gurus, seers, sages of various religions and also by experts in astronomy and physics. This is an on-going research and it may take many years to come to a uniform theory. I don't think that I can resolve this issue.
Now the "consciousness" has entered in this subject - "Origin of Universe". If we see the solution for this problem is "Consciousness" then there is NO ARGUMENT since nobody has defined what this "Consciousness" is. However, it is a best excuse to avoid further discussion.
Anyhow the Sikh scientists have recently turned to this subject looking form the angle of Gurbani and science. Guru Nanak has discussed this subject as revealed to him by God as is understood by many Sikh theologians as well as scientists. If it is so then whatever he has said in his Bani should be unchallenged. On the other hand there are a few who may say that it is the vision of Guru Nanak as he observed in the Universe/Nature. I have not come across anything like "Consciousness" as the Creator of the Universe in Guru Nanak's Bani.
But the question is how do we the Sikh theologians and scientists interpret the Bani of Guru Nanak. For example Dr Virk says:
<<<GOD or Reality is Uncreated (This is exactly the REVELATION of our Guru Nanak in Japu Pauri 5:thapia na jae kita na hoe; ape aap niranjan soe)>>>.
Dr Virk has not interpreted the above phrase but says as follows:
<<<Whatever is the fundamental source of creation, it itself must be uncreated. Otherwise, there is a hidden creator lying in the background, and then we must ask who or what created that. What does it mean to be uncreated? The source of reality must be self-sufficient, capable of engendering complex systems on the micro and macro scale, self-regulating, and holistic. Nothing can exist outside its influence. Ultimately, the uncreated source must also turn into the physical universe, not simply oversee it as God or the gods do in conventional religion. We feel that only consciousness fits the bill, for as a prima facie truth, no experience takes place outside consciousness, which means that if there is a reality existing beyond our awareness (counting mathematics and the laws of physics as 1 part
of our conscious experience), we will never be able to know it. The
fact that consciousness is inseparable from cognition, perception, observation, and measurement is undeniable; therefore, this is the
starting point for new insights into the nature of reality.>>>
I would interpret this phrase of Guru Nanak (thapia na jae kita na hoe; ape aap niranjan soe) as follows:
It can neither be constructed nor created since It has always been there of Its own without any fault (Flawless).
The "It" used here is called ENERGY by the scientists and is called JYOT (JOT) by Guru Nanak. This Energy or Jyot is Niranjan (without any fault). This Energy cannot be created since it was always there.
The so-called "Consciousness" has nothing to do with this phrase of Guru Nanak.
This Energy is represented as:
E = M C square
It means The Energy is converted into Matter and Matter into Energy and this cycle goes on in this Universe.
Kaiee baar pasrio pasara.
Regards,
Devinder Singh Chahal
Canada
Dr Virk is world famous scientist in Physics. Similarly there are other famous scientists on the GLZ forum. 'Origin of Universe' is the subject of discussion from the time immemorial and has been discussed by the prophets, Gurus, seers, sages of various religions and also by experts in astronomy and physics. This is an on-going research and it may take many years to come to a uniform theory. I don't think that I can resolve this issue.
Now the "consciousness" has entered in this subject - "Origin of Universe". If we see the solution for this problem is "Consciousness" then there is NO ARGUMENT since nobody has defined what this "Consciousness" is. However, it is a best excuse to avoid further discussion.
Anyhow the Sikh scientists have recently turned to this subject looking form the angle of Gurbani and science. Guru Nanak has discussed this subject as revealed to him by God as is understood by many Sikh theologians as well as scientists. If it is so then whatever he has said in his Bani should be unchallenged. On the other hand there are a few who may say that it is the vision of Guru Nanak as he observed in the Universe/Nature. I have not come across anything like "Consciousness" as the Creator of the Universe in Guru Nanak's Bani.
But the question is how do we the Sikh theologians and scientists interpret the Bani of Guru Nanak. For example Dr Virk says:
<<<GOD or Reality is Uncreated (This is exactly the REVELATION of our Guru Nanak in Japu Pauri 5:thapia na jae kita na hoe; ape aap niranjan soe)>>>.
Dr Virk has not interpreted the above phrase but says as follows:
<<<Whatever is the fundamental source of creation, it itself must be uncreated. Otherwise, there is a hidden creator lying in the background, and then we must ask who or what created that. What does it mean to be uncreated? The source of reality must be self-sufficient, capable of engendering complex systems on the micro and macro scale, self-regulating, and holistic. Nothing can exist outside its influence. Ultimately, the uncreated source must also turn into the physical universe, not simply oversee it as God or the gods do in conventional religion. We feel that only consciousness fits the bill, for as a prima facie truth, no experience takes place outside consciousness, which means that if there is a reality existing beyond our awareness (counting mathematics and the laws of physics as 1 part
of our conscious experience), we will never be able to know it. The
fact that consciousness is inseparable from cognition, perception, observation, and measurement is undeniable; therefore, this is the
starting point for new insights into the nature of reality.>>>
I would interpret this phrase of Guru Nanak (thapia na jae kita na hoe; ape aap niranjan soe) as follows:
It can neither be constructed nor created since It has always been there of Its own without any fault (Flawless).
The "It" used here is called ENERGY by the scientists and is called JYOT (JOT) by Guru Nanak. This Energy or Jyot is Niranjan (without any fault). This Energy cannot be created since it was always there.
The so-called "Consciousness" has nothing to do with this phrase of Guru Nanak.
This Energy is represented as:
E = M C square
It means The Energy is converted into Matter and Matter into Energy and this cycle goes on in this Universe.
Kaiee baar pasrio pasara.
Regards,
Devinder Singh Chahal
Canada
If anything that can be considered as a true observer is our consciousness/intellect. That is what has desires, fears and quest. All our knowledge and ignorance is due to that only. So is our concept of God and its creation. I, being an atheist and engineer, consider God and Ignorance equivalent. Both must be infinite in infinite dimensions. So theoretically it is impossible to know about both completely rather much.
ReplyDeleteIf one studies the different religions then one knows that basic purpose is to alleviate human suffering and fulfill human quest one way or the other. Science does the same in more transparent way though leading to several huge problems through commercialism.
Energy is a concept. Books are filled to the brim with its applications yet none of them talk much about the concept itself. It is easier to say that mass-energy and energy( creations bricks and Mortar) transformation into one another is what the creation is. Most of us tend to forget the scheme that is to be followed to use brick and mortar to get a complex creation that includes consciousness. BTW consciousness is also thought as a state of matter; matter as we all know has thousands of states. The common four are plasma, gas, liquid and solid
That plan can be named as Information. It encompasses all science, philosophy etc; all knowledge and ignorance. How the continuum of Information and Energy develop into a creation is a question that one must avoid for the time being for one’s good mental health. Let that be the sweet will of this continuum.
Why do we( so called scientists and philosophers) hanker so much after whys and hows ? Can’t we do something better for this inconsequential celestial body that we call earth and a special state of matter habituating it for millions of years? Can’t we live without the use of huge amounts of energy and transformed materials? We really need some drastic change in the way we live and definition of progress we all die for daily.
Har Sukhdeep Singh Bains.
Gurgaon.
IIT Varanasi,BHU.